Curse

kupp · Feb 23, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

So very recently I started using a 2nd account and the 6 heroes team. Love it. What I'm asking is some ideas on how to make full use of the 3 aditional heroes I'm using. I have Elonian Vanquisher and I vanquished the whole continent hero/henching except a few vabbi areas, and only used the 6 heroes on 2 instan areas. My build and my 3 heroes are these:

[build=OQASE5JTiFfFhF7g8VGWXFyl]

[build=OwUUMmG/SYSaENg3NTftEBE1D9AA]
[build=OQNEAqsj2xUA0AcgcAKIDQEQjA]
[build=OghjowMooOkViRREY44wY4iLGA]

giving small adjustments on the monk when needed. With the other 3 heroes I'm using sabway,

[build=OAhkQIG4BLqUegdQZglQnAjIqDGD]
[build=OANDUsldSLVVBoBKgLCJgGNVVA]
[build=OAhiYwhMhtJNN5MMNOlAWVlcBA]

It's okay I guess, but I'm looking for something different, less gimmicky wich means ditching sabway if it's worth really doing that.

Just to be clear, I'm doing this because I'd rather have a team build that can adpat to more situations (I'm thinking in doing fow/doa/slaver's), because I want to inovate and because I want so squeeze 100% performance out of the team instead of having an all around build. Just keep mind though that I'm keeping the MB in any case.

Now, since I'm a warrior I thought of switching the fire Vekk for a water build mainly for snares. Thought of something like

[build=OghkswMYoIqS0oOTz6cNQDygxA]

maybe switching Mind Freeze for [Ward Against Harm] (I'm not very familiar with the water line).

Also, since I used to run fow a lot with an old guildee of mine, using 4-5 Splinter Barrage rangers, I also thought of adding Pyre,

[build=OggjclZsYKL2jparGGjdFnAA]

though I'm not sure that'd work very well in hard mode...

So I need some opinions on those, and some ideas for other builds and added functionality to the team. Also, I'd like to know if I ditch the resto healer, using 2 monks is it better to have a pure healer and prot, or 2 hybrids?

Thanks a lot for your input

Loki Seiguro · Feb 23, 2009, 07:54 PM // 19:54

hmm I wish I could do two accounts at once..if I were you though I wouldn't do a snare ele unless you really need it. Try blinding surge ele if you want less dps my the bad guys. And barrage rangers might do good in some areas but can be annoying when arrows don't hit. Not to mention rangers have base ele resistance which is good.

jiggles · Feb 23, 2009, 08:14 PM // 20:14

[discord]

bring a mm, three or so hybrid necro healers, and then two hex and condition necros. Nuff said really.

UnChosen · Feb 23, 2009, 09:44 PM // 21:44

He said less gimmicky....discord is as gimmicky as it gets, even more than sabway. There ain't that many other choices though...HM is a nightmare for nearly all the classes, especially eles. Watching a 100+ dmg fireball gets reduced to <20 dmg is just sad. He would pretty much have to go with necro/mesmer heroes, or physical + orders...but that is quite gimmicky as well.

SmokingHotImolation · Feb 23, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

IMO go tease or VoR on the mesmer hero.

kupp · Feb 23, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Discordway is far from what I'm looking for, I'm looking for more balanced stuff and sinergy between heroes. That wouldn't be very possible in H/H but with 6 of them there's a lot more possibilities and versatiliy, and that's where I need help. There's no point in making discordway x2.

@ smoking, I already used vor but it's just more damage, power block is more usefull at shuting down casters wich is more important in hard mode imo.

Gigashadow · Feb 23, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

You could bring a whole bunch of Paragons, as paragons have synergy with each other (effects that happen whenever a shout/chant ends on an ally, next shout/chant costs less energy, etc.). Stunning Strike, Song of Restoration, Song of Purification. Enfeebling blood only costs 1e so you can even stick that on a paragon with a free secondary.

Luminarus · Feb 24, 2009, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Tbh, i usually run sabway in HM because it just makes things easier. However, if running with 6 heroes, (and im assuming you dont use the character on the 2nd account. Although you could run that character as a monk, and put bonds on him. Eg Strength and Honor, Life Bond/Barrier, etc. Stuff that doesnt require much time to micro, just target ur main account and press space and move with your main.)

Anywho, bcak to the 6 heroes.

In HM earth is a very powerful element, especially [Unsteady Ground] for aoe kd. Due to the AI, the enemies should be stuck in it the full time. [Churning Earth] is also a very good skill because the AI have an inherent IMS which causes them to be knocked down. And finally, [Eruption] provides aoe blind which reduces their damage. At the same time as this, its damage isnt that bad, considering that the enemies have a tonne of armor due to HM. In the end, the bar I run is: [Earth Attunement][Unsteady Ground][Churning Earth][Eruption][Ward Against Melee][Ward Against Elements][Optional][Resurrection Signet]or[Flesh of my Flesh]or[Death Pact Signet]or[Resurrection Chant]

Since you are a melee, with aoe kd. I would recommend a smiter hero. Yes this may seem gimmicky, however it actually works really well. RoJ puts out nice damage, especially if knocked down in it, whilst doing damage from any conditions/hexes you recieve, and increasing your damage through strength of honor. The bar I use is: [Ray of [email protected]][Reversal of [email protected]][Smite [email protected]][Smite [email protected]][Smiters [email protected]][Castigation [email protected]][Strength of [email protected]][Optional], either rez or p-drain/leech signet in the optional.

A ritualist based channeling/healer hybrid could also work really well in the build. A 13 or 14 Spec (depending on bar setup_ Splinter Weapon is very nice, and doesnt take up much room on the bar. Possible skills could include [Xinrae's Weapon], although dumass heroes will often blow away other weapons spells with that one, [Offering of [email protected]], for energy, etc. I would probably run the N/Rt healer build from sabway, except on a ritualist primary. If your good at getting aggro and holding with earthshaker, then ancestors rage and spirit rift are good. However, if you arent, then they are definately wastes of a slot as their damage is only good against lots of bunched up foes.

Searing Flames and RoJ has decent synergy as well, and if the bar is set up right the ele hero can provide some party support as well through Aegis and Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond. A bar similar to: [Fire [email protected]][Searing [email protected]][Glowing [email protected]][Glyph of Lesser [email protected]][Optional][Protective [email protected]][[email protected]][Optional] First optional being for [Liquid [email protected]],[[email protected]]or[[email protected]]. 2nd optional, for another of those 3, or rez (hard or soft, ur choice].

Permanent burning says to me, 1 great skill to run is [They're on Fire]. A cruel spear paragon could put out decent damage/deepwound and relieve pressure with that, or if you wanted a more supportive role, a song of restoration healer with ToF could be nice. Ill leave that up to you as it is more situational then the rest imo.

Thats 6 Possible heroes ive suggested, but all in all not too much healing is in there. In pve, nothing beats soul reaping as energy management. As such I have moved away from Mo based healers. The healer bar I always use in pve, is a N/Mo. I even use it with sabway over the N/Rt healer. I personally find this bar able to deal with alot more, and is very helpful when running into a mob due to the ability to micro SoA onto yourself as the warrior.

Remember, this is a N/Mo:

[Word of [email protected]][Patient [email protected]][Dwayna's [email protected]][Cure [email protected]][Foul [email protected]][Shield of [email protected]][Optional][Optional]

I put dwayna's sorrow in their if I have a minion master, spotless mind/soul in hex heavy areas (i forget which is which), or rez if i feel the need for more rez. WIth sab I run dwayna's and rez usually.

General other builds that work really nicely include SS builds, MM bombers, etc. These are usually associated with sabway, but the thing about sab is that it uses 2 great builds in pve, SS & MM, and then puts out a tonne of healing due to SR from the Necro healer. I didnt mention them earlier because you obviously already know about them, but they would work nicely.

Hope this helps you out a bit.

Trader of Secrets · Feb 24, 2009, 07:07 AM // 07:07

To do the job, discords; maybe throw in a bha ranger in there.

For loads of fun, run dslash with SY and 6 RoJ monks, very fun.

Gigashadow · Feb 24, 2009, 08:35 AM // 08:35

I use the exact same minion bomber bar that you do, and it's amazing how much party healing that guy provides, and how much utility is really crammed in to that bar. (Btw when they fix the AI for using Spirit's Gift, I plan to change [Dwayna's Sorrow][Infuse Condition] --> [Spirit's Gift][Splinter Weapon] and move Dwayna's Sorrow to another character).

For the curses necro I was never that happy with Spiteful Spirit (it's not bad by any means, but it's not amazing either; the target usually dies so quick I just never got that much out of it). I experimented with many other secondaries and elites for the necro, and finally settled on this:

[Divert [email protected]][Enfeebling [email protected]][[email protected]][Weaken [email protected]][Shadow of [email protected]][Rip [email protected]][[email protected]][Signet of Lost [email protected]]

Divert Hexes may seem like a strange elite to bring, as I used to generally agree with Sab that hexes generally aren't threatening and should just be ignored and healed through. However, I have to say I've been extremely happy with how well this runs.

Since I play a warrior, little sucks more than getting hit with Soothing Images, usually covered immediately by Crippling Anguish and Conjure Phantasm, or necro hexes. The loss of ability to use Save Yourselves! can really hurt, especially as I tend to try to bring the absolute minimum of defensive characters possible when vanquishing, to make things much faster paced and more fun for myself. For example, my healing comes from just a hench monk plus Dwayna's Sorrow from the minion master, and a D/N Orders Dervish. That's it, I don't use a third necro right now.

Divert Hexes almost always ends up removing a condition from a hexed person as well (usually bleeding, but it's quite the bonus when I'm hexed AND blinded/weakened), which means other characters less time spend removing conditions. The extra heal is a nice plus. 3 hexes every 5 seconds makes this guy a hex-removing machine. The downside of this spell, its 10 energy cost, means nothing on a necro.

I was thinking about trying to fit [Shield of [email protected]] on there as well, as the hench monk doesn't have it, and that spell effectively makes my warrior practically immune to all damage for 6 seconds when corner blocking a huge mob of creatures. Without it, the other characters have to spam heals on me and it gets a little dicey sometimes.

Daesu · Feb 24, 2009, 09:42 AM // 09:42

I have always wanted to build a good physical enchantment build but I only have it in theory at the moment. It goes something like:

- Ether Renewal protect/smite Ele
[Ether Renewal][Aura of Restoration][Protective Spirit][Reverse Hex][Spirit Bond][Zealot's Fire][Strength of Honor][Balthazar's Aura] or [Aegis]

- Rac's Orders D/N or N/Mo with heals
[build=OgSjQoqLrOe3Jhh4+GeBvlX8L] or
[Signet of Removal][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Blood Renewal][Dwayna's Kiss][Dismiss Condition][Masochism][Patient Spirit] or [Signet of Rejuvenation]

- Aotl/Fiends MM bomber with Dwayna's Sorrow
[Aura of the Lich][Animate Bone Fiend][Putrid Bile][Death Nova][Signet of Lost Souls][Dwayna's Sorrow][cure hex]

- Curse SS/Splinter N/Rt
[Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Rigor Mortis][Enfeebling Blood][Rend Enchantments][Foul Feast][Splinter Weapon]

- Motivational Paragon for some side healing
[Cruel Spear][aria of restoration][ballad of restoration][aria of zeal][go for the eyes!][aggressive refrain][Swift Javelin]

- Cruel Spear Command Paragon or an interrupt Ranger if you prefer
[Aggressive Refrain][Anthem of Weariness][Cruel Spear]["Go for the Eyes!"][Cry of Frustration][Anthem of Envy][Swift Javelin]

Orders and Dwayna's Sorrow would synergize well with Ether Renewal. It also helps to protect against the usual enchantment removal, unless you are encountering lots of deep enchantment removal, which is rare in pve.

There is also a possibility that it doesn't have enough healing for HM but it may still be fine with a SY character. A dervish would probably enjoy all these enchantments.

zling · Feb 24, 2009, 10:44 AM // 10:44

if you wanna try something less gimmicky you can try 2 Earth Nukers(yes I said Earth not Fire) 1 with [sandstorm][churning earth] and [ward against melee] and the other with [unsteady ground][eruption] and [ward against foes] or [ward of stability] the rest of the bars are pretty flexible. I would put [earth attunement] on both, and manually cast if you want to bother cause heroes suck with attunements. the rest can go to secondary profession skills or spells that dont require big attribute investment such as [deep freeze]
to these you can add a Paragon, [stunning strike] will be my elite of choice but the whole bar(including the elite) is very flexible.
than you can buff your own damage with either an Orders Necro or Dervish or a Smiter. pretty standard bars here.
if you dont want a Paragon you can always put a MM/Curse necro instead, MM will go well with the orders(assuming it still affects minions) and Curses will of course go well with your Warrior.
your backline can be whatever, Rits with [offering of spirit] N/Rts, Monks(heal and prot alike), even [ether prodigy] Ele healers. any combination of the above basically.

oh and for your bar, do yourself a favour and fit [Save yourselves!] and a deep wound somewhere on your bar :P
DW can be either [crushing blow] or [pulverizing smash] the later being unneeded if you run [enfeebling blood] on 1 of your heroes.

Super Igor · Feb 24, 2009, 01:42 PM // 13:42

[spirit rift] sucks tbh, pretty low damage long cast and mobs run away from it before it hits.

Also lol at Daesu's build, minion bomber with bone fiends and 7 skill skill bars. :P

kupp · Feb 25, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Ok so after reading your thoughts I switched the fire ele for an earth ele, and good god did I fell in love with it. Party wide protection, aoe knockdowns and blind nearly while doing some damage at the same time, all in one bar are a must.

Also ditched the hybrid monk I ran and use it as a smiter, RoJ is a really nice skill that compliments the earth's bar nicely. Also SoH on me is quite a buff, I'm gonna try it later using a conjure weapon at the same time, pulling around +25-30 damage every hit. Btw I got myself a tormented axe and I'm using this

[build=OQASEZJTgPRFQFCF7g8VGWni]

Or Pain Inverter instead of the Headbutt. As for the rest of the team, I'll be honest. The testing I did so far was still using sabway, I only changed the hybrid for a smiter and the fire for earth, while the only healing I'm getting is the usual N/Rt with [xinrae's weapon]. A question here though, I'm stil yet to see how a resto healer can be better than an usual monk, Livia simply doesn't seem as efficient. However, would it be better to run N/Mo, Luminarus? Since divine favor doesn't apply here, I'm afraid it might not be enough but I never did try one.

So, so far I have:

[build=OwYS4YIP+s5hLh6jSs+VfkB]
[build=OghkkwMYoIqTqYHeKYawiXBGL5C]
[build=OANDUsldSLVVBoBKgLCJgGNVVA]
[build=OQNEAqsj2xUA0AcgcAKIDQEQjA]

Before I go to the other 2, would you guys think a mesmer hero would really be worth it pve? At least one with that bar. I find it usefull sometimes but seeing how gwen's pool always has more than half the energy I've been thinking for some time if she's really worth it. Maybe throwing in a couple of water hexes in there could make more use of her?

With the last 2, I'll be straight: I don't really understand paragons and their usefulness, but can't see why they're so popular other than doing some minor healing. So adding a 2nd Ele in the party would do some good? I'm still wondering if a water ele would be good, even though it would make [churning earth] and [Unsteady Ground] useless to some extent. [ward against harm] would be very usefull as well, along with [maelstrom]. I haven't tried an Searing Flames nuker, will give it a go as well though I'm sick of all the scatter and kiting I get, and using Flail as an IAS, gets frustrating.

The last spot, well it should be a healer I suppose, N/Rt, N/Mo, Mo/x whatever it is.

So:

1 Smiter monk
1 Power Block mesmer (if it really is worth keeping)
1 Earth ele
1 Miniom Bomber
1 Healer
1 Blank slot for a 2nd ele, or a para if it really is that good, or anything else... Still need some insight on this one

Fire The Nutter · Feb 25, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Well in my opinion for what its worth, the N/Rt is a great addition to just about any team setup but only for a red bars go up kinda monking, barring a small amount of condition removal.
It works based on energy gain from soul reaping more than anything so abuse that however you want, if you want to go Mo and put in [WoH] or something go for it. I find the /Rt option useful for party wide heals from [Life] and [PwK] can be great for spike healing. You could change up the elite on that though, Xinrae's has got bad press from some, you could try [weapon of remedy] or [icy veins] for more offense. Another option if you really wanted it would be a E/Mo ER healer but that has its weaknesses when it comes to ench removal.

Para's - I'm guessing you've not played one? One of their main advantages is their buffs through shouts, chants etc. They cant be stripped or otherwise removed (barring a few areas with vocal minority etc) which is great and things like [anthem of envy] can be great, espec with you as a warrior. From my experience they work better the more of them you have if you are using things like echos etc though. Also their damage output is great as they attack quicker than most. Its all a matter of taste though.

Can I ask, your build, why the Triple Chop? I guess if you are good at balling the AI then thats ok but if your engaging single targets then [cleave] or something would be better.

I know you want to avoid the cliche but I like a curses necro in there too. Then that said the earth bar you've given, how is it fairing for energy? The more common alternative has [enfeebling blood] and [stoning] and [glowstone]. Adds more def with the weakness and single target KD. Id also recommend a VoR mesmer, if you've got the foes balled up thats an AoE hex with massive HM dmg due to decreased cast times etc, the more the AI spams, the more they die! Helped me no end to do Frostmaw's HM.
Being a ranger primary ive always lived by the idea that if I can stop that big spell going off its easier than healing through the damage or out damaging a heal spamming monk so id suggest some good interrupt in there any time.

Daesu · Feb 25, 2009, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire The Nutter

Xinrae's has got bad press from some,

The reason why Xinrae is not being cast often enough is because people are using it wrong. They take sab's restore healer and simply replace the elite from weapon of remedy to xinrae. That is the wrong way to do it. Dont put weapon of warding and xinrae on the same skill bar.

Super Igor · Feb 25, 2009, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The reason why Xinrae is not being cast often enough is because people are using it wrong. They take sab's restore healer and simply replace the elite from weapon of remedy to xinrae. That is the wrong way to do it. Dont put weapon of warding and xinrae on the same skill bar.

Why should we believe you? How is it wrong? Looks like an other unsopported Daesu-trash.

[weapon of warding] is amazing! Its like guardian but unstrippable and counters degen, you wow some guys and spam [xinraes weapon] on others. Heroes are amazing at protting with weapon spells such as WoW or WoS thanks to their reflexes so those are too good to miss and there is nothing wrong with having Xinrae's and WoW on the same bar they wont cancel out wepon spells.

Gigashadow · Feb 25, 2009, 09:43 PM // 21:43

I tried the earth ele/rt, it was pretty fun. Sometimes it made things scatter unnecessarily, but often the minions would body block and prevent that from happening. What would you suggest instead of Ward vs Elements? (I run Save Yourselves! and don't need it). I tried Grasping Earth to keep everyone slowed for the AOEs, but the hero never uses it.

Also, has anyone experimented with changing up the minion bomber and switching out Jagged Bones, Infuse Condition, Foul Feast, etc. and trying out any other elite and secondary? (you'd still need to get Dwayna's Sorrow from another character, as it's just too good when there's a minion bomber around). There's nothing really wrong with the bomber as is, I just like trying to see if I can optimize things. Jagged Bones can crank out 1 minion every 15s, while Animate Bone Minions already can crank out 2 minions every 5s, although obviously the mechanism is a little different. I tested out moving some of the Earth ele skills (including Unsteady Ground) to the minion bomber, and it was all right, but not amazing. Ideally the skills would be powerful with long recharges, so that the minion bomber is left free to spam death nova and animate bone minions.

Super Igor · Feb 25, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

mah earth ele

[unsteady ground][churning earth][eruption][earthquake][ward against melee][enfeebling blood][glowstone][earth attunement]

Amazing vs all sorts of physicals and also shuts down casters because they wand alot and are effected by HM speed boost too. xD

Gigashadow · Feb 26, 2009, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by kupp

[build=OQASEZJTgPRFQFCF7g8VGWni]

If you're using 14 weapon skill/13 strength, you might consider [Body [email protected]] instead of [Executioner's [email protected]]. 1 less adrenaline to use, same damage number (well a difference of 2 due to 1 less in the attribute), plus a free deep wound if you bring someone (e.g. ele or necro) who applies cracked armor.